Bid to move on travellers

[tiddles]

from the Greenock Tele

If any of us arrived at Newark Castle or Parklea and pitched dozens of caravans and created a God-awful mess, what would happen to us? yes, you guessed right, we'd be rounded up and throw off right away and hauled in front of the court to answer charges.

Why are these people such a special case?? They are NOT gypsies or Romanies. They are nomadic intenerant, 'workers' who exist without the bounds of the law. They make all sorts of claims about their unique culture yet they could not exist without us with our drives, 'needing fixing' and our, 'ready to fall off' guttering.

The police should tell them to bugger off on pain of having their, 'cultural homes' bulldozed. Our dear Social Work department should get in with their hobnailed boots and take these kids into care.

The TV Licencing people should also get a grip of them too and perhaps a good look at their vehicles to see if they are taxed and insured. They should also be served notice for council tax and prosecuted for criminal damage.

Enough is bloody enough, this is 2012, if they want to lead their oh so idyllic lives, let them bugger off to some uninhabited island away from the rest of us who pay our way instead of feeding of the carcass of society.

Before any Redgrave-esque goody-goody says anything, remember that these people are NOT a different race and their aberrant behaviour does NOT amount to a unique culture. The Republic of Ireland where many of them come from have made it clear that they have no separate racial status and this has been approved by the EU. What the f*** is wrong with this country, can we have it back please?

[winston]

I think the Council should seriously consider setting aside a plot of land with basic services such as a water supply and waste disposal. It should cost travellers a few pounds a week to stay there so that the operational costs are covered and it pays for itself within a few years.

At the same time I think the Council should consider a local bye-law which prevents the travellers setting up wherever they like. I'm no legal expert but I would imagine that if there is a dedicated site for the Travelllers then the Council can't be accused of abusng their human rights by immediately moving them on from places like Newark Castle, Kelburn Park, etc.

For known areas of private land the Travellers use (i.e. behind Halfords, the old Gantock Hotel site) where the Council currently have no right to move the Travellers on, they could seek a written agreement with those owners that allows the Council to move on the Travellers under the terms of the local bye-law.

The plot of land needn't be a prime piece of land, just somewhere accessible that allows the Travellers an element of privacy and security where they are not stopping other people from using the local facilities.

[winston]

I didn't notice your comment Tiddles before I posted under Linda's topic.

Linda/Jock, can we link the two posts to create one post?

[linda wallace]

from winston....removed double topic

I think the Council should seriously consider setting aside a plot of land with basic services such as a water supply and waste disposal. It should cost travellers a few pounds a week to stay there so that the operational costs are covered and it pays for itself within a few years.

At the same time I think the Council should consider a local bye-law which prevents the travellers setting up wherever they like. I'm no legal expert but I would imagine that if there is a dedicated site for the Travelllers then the Council can't be accused of abusng their human rights by immediately moving them on from places like Newark Castle, Kelburn Park, etc.

For known areas of private land the Travellers use (i.e. behind Halfords, the old Gantock Hotel site) where the Council currently have no right to move the Travellers on, they could seek a written agreement with those owners that allows the Council to move on the Travellers under the terms of the local bye-law.

The plot of land needn't be a prime piece of land, just somewhere accessible that allows the Travellers an element of privacy and security where they are not stopping other people from using the local facilities.

[tiddles]

There are bylaws to proscribe unauthorised camping and to be honest, I don't see why my taxes should be used to provide facilities for people who think we are prey. And I have to say that the good folks who live nearby the old Gantock site would be thrilled to have the pleasure of the squalor these people create. You'll also find that the distinctly non-travelling travellers have some, 'tradition' that prevents them from staying at authorised campsites.

No, I'm bloody fed up with them and their abhorrent behaviour. I couldn't believe the mess they left at the Gantock and elsewhere. Filthy, dirty bastards.

[tiddles]

aw, ye clipped mine

[linda wallace]

i agree tiddles....the state they left newark castle in was a disgrace and i for one wouldnt want them anywere near were i live.....its their choice to live on the road and break the law but we dont need to put up with it....we all pay our taxes and we all deserve a quiet life.

[tiddles]

sorted


There are bylaws to proscribe unauthorised camping and to be honest, I don't see why my taxes should be used to provide facilities for people who think we are prey. And I have to say that the good folks who live nearby the old Gantock site would be thrilled to have the pleasure of the squalor these people create. You'll also find that the distinctly non-travelling travellers have some, 'tradition' that prevents them from staying at authorised campsites.

No, I'm bloody fed up with them and their abhorrent behaviour. I couldn't believe the mess they left at the Gantock and elsewhere. Filthy, dirty bastards.

[linda wallace]

i thought i was losing the plot there as i kept going into what i thought was yours and it was mine...lol....i'll get jock to sort it out later on as knowing me i would delete the whole board...i,m good like that....
on topic
i agree tiddles....the state they left newark castle in was a disgrace and i for one wouldnt want them anywere near were i live.....its their choice to live on the road and break the law but we dont need to put up with it....we all pay our taxes and we all deserve a quiet life.

[tiddles]

Yes and why doesn't that bloody senile stick insect, Redgrave not have them on the grounds of her Buckinghamshire estate?

I am really, really sick of it and I get mighty angry having to bite my tongue every time they do something awful. It's not as though they toddle around the country in quaint little waggons doing pot mending and stuff. No, what we get are Transit vans and scabby caravans filled with feral weans and barking dugs.

I have patients who are terrified of them because they were threatened and when I reported it to the police all I got told was, "our hands are tied"! What, are they playing some S&M game that requires them to be tied up (ello ello ello)? The 'travellers' are breaking the law and it's plain and simple. As I said earlier, if any of us did it we'd be stood in Nelson Street listening to one of John Herald's ramblings.

If life on the road is so wonderful, why do they spend most of their time squatting in towns? Yes, we all KNOW why, we are their prey.

[tiddles]

You should have seen what they did down at the Gantock, it was mind-blowing. Shit everywhere (literally), nappies, gas cylinders in fact, you name it and it was there. Vile, stinking and TOTALLY unacceptable. If I kept my kids in those conditions they'd have been taken away long ago but oh no, we mustn't upset the 'Travelling Community'!!!! Everything's a, 'community' now when something unpleasant is going on.

It's 2012 and they are not quaint or colourful, they have a convenient, 'tradition' when they are asked to do something. Something really has to be done.

I wonder what happened to the Well Park chains? Anyone know?

[linda wallace]

i have heard folks saying that when the travellers come you can expect a lot of house breakins...
look at that programme that is on tv...big fat gipsy wedding...i am sorry but i dont like them and dont trust them

[linda wallace]

now that is a thought tidds...were they around when the chains went missing???
the police should have more power to move them on, its their way of life so if they want to live that way then that is up to themselves but i would keep moving them on till they get the message....there are good romanies out there who are getting tard with the same brush as those scumbags and these people are the true romanies

[tiddles]

You might say that, you might very well say that but I couldn't possibly comment.

[linda wallace]

they have never got anyone for removing those chains and its not that, it happened a second time and no one heard or seen anything....i think with the noise of what ever they used it would have been noticed

[myfindhorn]

remember the program about them and two teenage girls were in the woods with toilet paper and when asked where they were going, they replied to the trees to empty their bowels ( thats me putting it nicely ) and when asked why can't they do it in their caravans as they had toilets.............reply " we have to cook there and there is no way we will do that near the kitchen " so they said they did'nt care what we thought about them going into a bush or behind a tree, or for the fact they leave the soiled tissue behind.

Personally I would have rubbed their snotty make-up packed wee faces in the middle of their own dirt.

There is no shame in making a mess, the shame is leaving someone else to clean it up.

All they are , are squatters.

[jimwatson]

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the travellers and I did not speak out because i was not a traveller.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

[tiddles]

Och Jim, I don't think Niemoller's wise words are appropriate here. No one is depriving them of their right to exist or their right of free expression but their existence and free expressions must be within the law and not prejudicial to the rights and freedoms of anyone else.

Sure, give them a site but they have to pay their share for it in the same way as RCH tenants have to pay their rent. Their current ability to squat on and defile parkland and private property is not sustainable. Hiding behind, 'traditions' and, 'culture' is not acceptable, we could all do that but life as we know it would be chaotic.

It is easy to portray them as poor victims but in my view and those of most people is that they make victims of us. They wander around conning people, vulnerable people, into letting them put down ropey driveways and they con old people out of thousands on the pretext that their roofs are in danger of collapse. If all else fails they threaten (personal experience).

Wherever they, 'rest their caravans' they always leave foul and disgusting messes and destruction and we have to pick up the tab to return things to their original state.

They do not care for their children by any civilised standards. They receive virtually no education and the general health amongst them is very poor indeed. This lack of education leads to a perpetuation of their, 'culture'.

We must also pause and consider just what we mean by the term, 'traveller'. It can mean virtually anything from spaced out hippies to ethnic Roma. The ones we have here are Irish, for want of a better word, tinkers. Historically these were people who followed agricultural fairs and engaged mainly in the repair of pots, pans and far implements, hence their onomatopoeic name. Such activities naturally required them to pursue a nomadic existence.

They are not a distinct race, a term in my view, all too often used incorrectly. Their previous activities ended when affluence and technology enabled people to have their equipment either replaced or repaired professionally. Their, 'culture' amounts to nothing more than a lifestyle choice but it is a choice that cannot exist without mainstream society. This relationship however is far from symbiotic; they take from us but give nothing back in return. Indeed, their anti-social behaviour actually has a detrimental effect upon our own right to live in peace and safety.

Returning to Martin Niemoller's well known poem, as you know, he wrote this as a criticism of the NAZI concentration camps and the extermination of millions who did not conform to the National Socialist skewed vision of normality. I have at no time suggested that we should even consider for one second such an evil course of action and I am sad that you of all people should even obliquely infer such a thing. Bear in mind that Niemoller himself was no saint who retained his anti-Semitism for the remainder of his life.

The recent Channel 4 programmes about gypsy weddings and the like are sheer salacious nonsense and whilst there are many sound and accurate portrayals, much of it is sheer schlock intended to entertain rather than inform.

So, I and I'm sure the rest of us on here, would never advocate NAZI ideology or methods. What I want is for these people to adhere to societal convention and law if they wish to be accepted by the the rest of us. Their current behaviour is parasitical and cannot continue. We can start the process of integrating them now by applying our existing laws on theft, extortion, destruction of property and criminal trespass. Then we can look at the welfare situation and how we can educate their offspring and ensure their health. The old Bliar (Alistair Campbell mantra of, "Education, education, education" is very apposite here.

[samfregreenock]

Feb 12, 2012 14:08:59 GMT 1 jimwatson said:

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the travellers and I did not speak out because i was not a traveller.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

FFS Jim - Paraphrasing Niermueller is a bit over the top.

This mob are nothing like the groups persecuted by the fascists, most of them are about as Romany as the dalai lama.
They shouldn't be indulged just because they proclaim some non-existent heritage and mythology of travelling the highways and byways eeking out a living.

They cause upset to many

[linda wallace]

Feb 12, 2012 15:59:05 GMT 1 tiddles said:

Och Jim, I don't think Niemoller's wise words are appropriate here. No one is depriving them of their right to exist or their right of free expression but their existence and free expressions must be within the law and not prejudicial to the rights and freedoms of anyone else.

Sure, give them a site but they have to pay their share for it in the same way as RCH tenants have to pay their rent. Their current ability to squat on and defile parkland and private property is not sustainable. Hiding behind, 'traditions' and, 'culture' is not acceptable, we could all do that but life as we know it would be chaotic.

It is easy to portray them as poor victims but in my view and those of most people is that they make victims of us. They wander around conning people, vulnerable people, into letting them put down ropey driveways and they con old people out of thousands on the pretext that their roofs are in danger of collapse. If all else fails they threaten (personal experience).

Wherever they, 'rest their caravans' they always leave foul and disgusting messes and destruction and we have to pick up the tab to return things to their original state.

They do not care for their children by any civilised standards. They receive virtually no education and the general health amongst them is very poor indeed. This lack of education leads to a perpetuation of their, 'culture'.

We must also pause and consider just what we mean by the term, 'traveller'. It can mean virtually anything from spaced out hippies to ethnic Roma. The ones we have here are Irish, for want of a better word, tinkers. Historically these were people who followed agricultural fairs and engaged mainly in the repair of pots, pans and far implements, hence their onomatopoeic name. Such activities naturally required them to pursue a nomadic existence.

They are not a distinct race, a term in my view, all too often used incorrectly. Their previous activities ended when affluence and technology enabled people to have their equipment either replaced or repaired professionally. Their, 'culture' amounts to nothing more than a lifestyle choice but it is a choice that cannot exist without mainstream society. This relationship however is far from symbiotic; they take from us but give nothing back in return. Indeed, their anti-social behaviour actually has a detrimental effect upon our own right to live in peace and safety.

Returning to Martin Niemoller's well known poem, as you know, he wrote this as a criticism of the NAZI concentration camps and the extermination of millions who did not conform to the National Socialist skewed vision of normality. I have at no time suggested that we should even consider for one second such an evil course of action and I am sad that you of all people should even obliquely infer such a thing. Bear in mind that Niemoller himself was no saint who retained his anti-Semitism for the remainder of his life.

The recent Channel 4 programmes about gypsy weddings and the like are sheer salacious nonsense and whilst there are many sound and accurate portrayals, much of it is sheer schlock intended to entertain rather than inform.

So, I and I'm sure the rest of us on here, would never advocate NAZI ideology or methods. What I want is for these people to adhere to societal convention and law if they wish to be accepted by the the rest of us. Their current behaviour is parasitical and cannot continue. We can start the process of integrating them now by applying our existing laws on theft, extortion, destruction of property and criminal trespass. Then we can look at the welfare situation and how we can educate their offspring and ensure their health. The old Bliar (Alistair Campbell mantra of, "Education, education, education" is very apposite here.

well said tidds

[selkie]

I was going to post something but I don't know if i'm getting it out right so i'll shoosh for now.

[linda wallace]

selkle just put down what your thinking

[selkie]

I don't want to annoy anyone, but i seriously got a bit worried when i read what was posted at first. Here's what my jumbled thoughts have come up with so far as i try to sort this out in my head :

"Guys, I hate to say it, but I think Jim has a bit of a point. Now I know from on here that you ARE NOT a bunch of rabid hating folks, and to a certain extent I agree with what you have said, but go back and have a re-read of what you have written and look at it from another point of view.

Forums aren't the best place to get a point across, after all there is no eye contact, I cannot read your body language, and I certainly cannot get anything from your tone of voice, but I have always stood by the ideal that Scotland has no place for violence of the mind,or of the body, and to be honest your posts came across as a little "hating"

These people are not Romany, that is true. They cause trouble and mess, that is true, and most of us would particularly like it if they were no where near us with their "traditions". All the same are they really worth all the vitriol?

Yes, enough is enough, but with a clear head and a clean heart a solution must be found, simply shoving them on and criticising the way they live won't do it. I think the way to deal with this is through OUR community, but not through ostracising them or lynch mobs, and until a solution is found I can only hope that the police will deal with them with a firm hand.

Geesh!.... i don't want you to think i'm a "Redgrave-esque goody-goody" or that i'm trying to criticise your opinions, but look at it like this. if i had reposted your posts but changed some of the subject matter? for example catholics and their controversial views on contraception? it all seems a little barbaric to me, but it's one of their beliefs and traditions. Personally i think it's stupid and harmful, but i would protect their right to change in their own time, if they ever do. Maybe Gays? after all most of america thinks it's their Homosexual ways that are corrupting the "american dream", sub-human because they don't deserve the rights that normal people have, but if they would just change and become good honest straight people they would be accepted with open arms. I think you would be a bit shocked.

No I don't like them, I don't like their ways, and I don't like the way they treat their women and children. But all the same i don't support any group of people being attacked, be it for race, sexuality, religion or system of beliefs. "

[samfregreenock]

A few years ago I was sitting in the car park at coronation park, listening to radio and reading the paper.
Someone knocked the window, it was one of those irish "traveller" types.
He says to me, you'll need to shift from here, we're setting up camp and if you don't fuckin move we'll block you in and do you.

I told him that local bye-laws prevented camping overnight on coonsil land - he told me to fuck off or I'd get a doin'

So went off round to the Port police station ( it was still manned 24X7 then) and reported it. The police when out right away and went round and shifted them toot-sweet
I drove by the exit about 30 mins later and who was sitting at the junction waiting to get out but the arse who had told me to move. I slowed down as I passed, pammped the horn and made sure he knew my thought with a cheery hand gesture

Fukkers

[cloakedandhidden]

I think there are a myriad of issues here, and I'll try and address some of them, and apologies if this goes on a bit or offends anyone…

First off, on the race/culture side…some of these groups are Romani. Some of them are Irish Traveller. Some (very few nowadays) are traditional Scots Travellers. Some are "new-age travellers";
The Romani HATE with a vile passion, the irish travellers. See them as rude, obnoxious thieves that give the Romani a very bad name. I don't know if that's true because in truth I've never really known any "tinkers"; I have been good friends with some Romani in the past and have found them to be a lovely, if slightly-odd people. I'm not keen on how they treat their women but it's their way and the women seem to like it, so live & let live.

What I'm very not keen on though is how some of the traveller communities (and from my experience, it isn't the Romani we're talking about here, it's the Irish Travellers) treat the areas they stay in; they do often treat the non-travellers as "prey" for various scams and ways of making coin, there is often a rise in petty thefts and other such crimes when they arrive, and they often leave a state behind them.

But the answer is not just to move them on. That's where the problem started. Back in the 60's, the UK Government changed the rules to allow local councils to shove them on, and also to make no allotment of areas for them to stay. They tried to put them into settled (rubbish) housing away from anyone they knew, with no family support. They often had the children taken away from them when they couldn't cope (Romani in particular but the irish-travellers as well, have a serious emphasis on extended families; these young couples had 2 or 3 kids and had no understanding of how the hell to live without the rest of the family for support) . There are horrific tales of children being put up for adoption without the parents consent or even knowledge (in one case I was told about, they were told the kids were getting a free holiday!), and even rumours that during the 40's and 50's there were sterilisation trials etc. to "breed" the problem away.

They have absolutely no reason to engage with our society which, to a default, always treats them as unwanted criminals, no matter what they do; they have no wish to live amongst us so you can't just make them take council houses either. The romani I have spoken to would just like to go back to how things used to be; sure there would always be the odd place they'd not be welcome, but by and large, people used to welcome the travelling folk, for their services, their circuses etc. Then the Government changed it so they were criminals. They couldn't set up camp anywhere…

You say "move them on". Where? Where can they go? And don't say "I don't care, just not here". Most LA's have no reason, interest or funding to set up places they can stay, and campsites will refuse to take them. In the few times they've tried to settle into a semi-permanent camp on land they buy outright, you get instances like Dale Farm where the local tory council decides it can use planning laws to kick people off their own damned land because "they don't like their type around here". Did they break planning laws? Probably. Was there a hope in hell they'd get permission after it became clear they're travellers? No (hence why in Dale Farm, they applied for a development before they arrived, then tried to get retrospective permission for later developments which was always refused). But it's their land! It's literally almost a pogrom they instituted down there; reports are coming back that the ones they moved on are dying in the cold-wave they're having, in lay-bys because they've not allowed to live on their own land!

As for sending them to some uninhabited island, that sounds awfully (not wishing to get into Jim's quotations there) like some of the ideas the Germans had in the 30's to do with the Jews before they came up with a more…final..solution. Albeit in that case they suggested Yugoslavia, not an island, but same thing. Send them "elsewhere".

Doesn't work, and it's not right - the Romani for instance have been in Scotland for hundreds of years; it is as much their land as ours. The "Irish" travellers as well didn't just hop off the ferry last week, some of them have been travelling around the UK as a whole for more generations than most of us can trace.

The solutions are many-fold and require BOTH communities to come together; the travelling community need to better enforce their own laws and rules (and the Romani tend to, the Irish travellers, not so much) a lot better and shun those who break them. And on our side of the fence, we need to supply a proper area for them to stay, and be vigourous about not letting them just setup anywhere; if the approved areas become too full, then we must provide more. We must cater to their education and health needs as well, rather than shunning or excluding. You cannot expect a travelling community to try and send their kids to normal schools every time they move on; that's daft. We set up special schools for various other groups like catholics, muslims etc. so why not have a travellers school next to the site, where teaches from their community can be employed to teach the kids properly and according to their customs (as appropriate)? Likewise, setup a clinic to help with their numerous health issues.

Shunning and just trying to wash our hands of them every time they turn up never works, and all it does is make them decide "well f^&* you too" - no wonder they leave shite at their arse. I'm far from some hand-wringing liberal whiny, thinking that it's all the fault of the wicked householders. Far from it, at least half of the problems are caused by the less salubrious bands doing what they like, wrecking campsites, embarking on crime-waves and moving on before the police can be bothered to do anything. And we should punish those, severely. But not tar them all with the same brush, and let them know that whilst they face heavy prison sentences, and the loss of all their possessions (ie confiscate their vans etc.) if they act like scum, if they act like decent, law-abiding people, we will treat them with respect. At the moment, the criminal groups do what they like and the ones that try to make a fair go of things merely get treated like the criminals, only they don't scarper in the night so get the heathy-breathing cops down their necks, looking to make some examples to quieten the angry public who saw them doing stuff all the last time a nasty group came along.

In summary, we cannot go one the way we have been, treating all travellers like criminals, but with a sick dualism, doing nothing to stop any actual criminal behaviour.

[linda wallace]

i think with the travellers that we are seeing coming to port glasgo are the type that dont care who they upset or care about the mess they leave behind....if things were different and they didnt leave the mess behind and werent nasty to folks people would tolerate them, you wouldnt have the same agro as there is now....there is bitter feelings as everytime they come and make camp it costs the rate payer to clean up after them.
folks dont want to do harm they just want a peaceful life to walk were they want too or indeed park were they want to without fear of being bullied

[selkie]

I agree Linda, i just wish there was a "peaceful" solution to all this without the bitterness and strife, It upsets me a bit when people feel trapped enough to get so angry. I guess thats what we all are in this situation, trapped with no solution.

[cloakedandhidden]

Yeah; I agree that the ones in the Port are probably not the sort of people I would choose to associate with... I was just reading the article on Romani on wiki…
Some numbers to illustrate what I was saying.
90% of all Romani in the UK live on authorised sites, paying full taxes.
90% of all planning application submitted by travellers are refused (contrast with "normal" application of <20% refusal).
The Caravan Sites Act 1968 closed off nearly all traditional stopping-places, and greatly restricted the numbers of authorised places (something that has slowly gotten better but still far from ideal) causing travellers to "stay put" when they finally obtain an authorised place.
A lot of the problems could probably be alleviated by allowing them to go back to using the traditional stops (or close to them), and enforcing the law if they make a mess.
But of course, our justice system depends on the notion that, by and large, someone will live in one place, so if you are arrested for something, when it comes time to take you to court, you'l probably still be there. If someone's life is nomadic, that's not the case, and the bad travellers will exploit this. So institute fast-track justice for travellers. Prioritise their cases, make them get dealt with quickly if they break the law (but fairly) so that they can't just move on, and I think that 90% of the problems with travellers will be gone inside a decade. If you give them cause, most people, even travellers, will stay within the rules. If you just ignore them, vilify them and try and send them on, you give them no reason to want to, and on top of that, no reason to need to.

[samfregreenock]

Part of Dale Farm is a legal site, complete with planning permission.

Many of the illegal residents of Dale Farm seemed to think it OK to have houses back home in Ireland but in the UK it had to be a caravan or nothing.
Perhaps providing sites for them to park up would be a solution, but the issue just changes then to the site not being big enough.
Just because they are "nomadic" doesn't stop them from acting in a socially responsible manner, if they want to take society's benefits then they have to conform to an extent in return - paying taxes (all types) paying insurances, keeping children in school until 16, in fact everything a normal citizen would do.
Why should their lifestyle be indulged, I don't expect the state and/or society to indulge mine.
If they want a travelling lifestyle, why should the state support that by providing everything for them and get nothing in return apart from shite and a hard time

[tiddles]

First of all Selkie, never think that you cannot post a comment on here lest one or other of us are annoyed or angered. At long last we have a real debate going on rather than the usual consensus. We might occasionally disagree or even be at each other's throats perpetually but at least we can be honest and unfettered by the, 'thought police'.

When I made my comments on here on this subject I knew full well that there would be some of us who would dissent from my views on it. I have to admit that I was a taken aback by Jim's NAZI analogy but Jim is a good man and his views and musings are always worth study.

I am just a bit worried that some of you have taken my, 'throw away line' about uninhabited islands as indicative of any real intention to advocate forced, 'resettlement' of any people. If any of you were offended by my comments, I offer an unreserved apology.

Inverclyde has many social problems and serious crime is well on the way to being endemic. Many of our cornerstone services are run by organised crime. Very few of us venture out alone in the evening whether in daylight or not. Most of us, myself included, fear answering the front door on occasions and this sort of circumstance is a breeding ground for xenophobia.

The classic, 'strangers' whom we were all no doubt enjoined to avoid in fear of being, 'stolen' were tinkers. My parents told me this and their parents told them etc., etc.. Just what gave rise to this curious paranoia, I have no idea. I would submit therefore that we might all have an inbuilt aversion to, 'travellers'.

Sadly nowadays we have serious problem in that we have a group, notice I did NOT say, 'race', of people who wish to pursue a nomadic lifestyle in such a way that causes real alarm within the, 'settled' community, that is to say, most of us.

I have no problem with people who want to travel the country, there are many people who do just that with their campervans and there are bands of labourers who travel around at various times of the year to farms to assist the farmers with planting and harvesting. That is all well and good and I'm sure we would feel the want of them if there were not there.

The, 'travellers' I refer to in my comments are the ones who float about the country with the sole intention of conning the unwary into having shoddy and unnecessary works carried out and steal anything that is moveable. Metal thefts are very in vogue. Show me a so-called traveller who funds his lifestyle in any other fashion and I'll eat my gloves.

We hear constantly about things being too, 'politically correct' and of course to a considerable extent, there is truth there but if people will not police their own actions then they must be policed. We have all offended someone at some stage in our lives and I defy anyone to say that they have never uttered a genuine racist remark.

So, as we all sit under the umbrella of common decency a new phenomenon has appeared. Every other little group it seems, wants exemption from societal convention. It's all, "it's our culture". Now I am fully in favour of freedom of expression. People have a right to live as they see fit but that life has to be within the law. If the laws are unjust as they were in relation to homosexuals, they should be opposed. But trying to justify what basically amounts to abuse as, 'our culture' has NO place in any civilised society.

As cloakie points out, rather draconian 60s legislation sought to, 'deal' with the traveller, 'problem' by eradicating their, 'traditional' campsites. It would have been better to have reach some kind of agreement between all parties rather than simply slam the door and say, "move along now".

Amongst the, 'travellers', men rule supreme and women and female children are little better than livestock. Girls are routinely forced into marriages that are little more than bondage (NO Jock, not THAT kind!). Education is discouraged even if, "traveller schools" were made available. Knowledge is power and no male, 'traveller' wants to give that up.

I have some experience of caring for sick travelling children. In general terms they are poorly nourished and have bad teeth, and a number of genetic disorders that are a result of continual interbreeding, rather like the Royal Family (light relief). They often show signs of quite severe beatings, particularly amongst the girls. Rape is common.

We have to strike a balance between condemnation and consideration. If a group of adults choose to meander about the highways and byways doing little bits of work here and there, that's their business BUT when children are involved it is quite unacceptable for them to be subjected to conditions and treatment that any charity would deplore in darkest Africa.

The law says that any child must have its birth recorded with a prescribed period of time. Travellers seldom if ever do this. The law says from the ages of 5 to 16 all children must attend school. Most traveller's children are more or less illiterate. The law says that parents or guardians are required to exercise proper and due care to their children and to see that they receive medical and dental treatment as required and they should not be subjected to harsh punishments.

What do we do about it all? Well as I commented earlier, we have to ensure that at least the children are cared for properly. ALL children must enter full-time education and all must be assessed regularly for health problems and appropriate treatment given when required. In time, with the benefit of an education, children or young adults can make their own choices as to how they want to live their lives.

Now let us consider the idea of building suitable campsites for them. The sites should have running water and services including electricity. A charge would be made for site rental which would include council tax and utilities. There would of course be rules. As with RCH tenancies, a, 'Missive of Let' would need to be agreed to that makes it clear what is not acceptable and what is not.

Having spent hundreds of thousands on these facilities, do you think the travellers would use them? NOT BLOODY likely if they can camp at Newark Castle or Parklea or anywhere they don't have to pay. Still, perhaps we should give it a try.

Back to the, 'illegal activities'. It's no use faffing about on this one, if the law is being broken by squads of burly, threatening Irish itinerants going round the doors putting pressure on the vulnerable or pinching drain covers, war memorial chains or shop front shutters, our police should descend upon them like Ghengis Khan. No pissing about with, 'we'll need to arrange a meeting with the elders'. If you commit a criminal offence, you're for the off.

Excellent debate chums!!!!